Talk:Yevgeny Borisovitch Volgin
Complete Monster Look, I personally want him to stay in the Complete Monster category, considering the depraved actions he did and the evil nature he has. But the problem is, he really can't stay, no matter what you, I or even TVTropes thinks. He already has a redeemable aspect by actually caring for Raikov's well being (do you really think he would get enraged at Snake for "hurting Ivan" if he didn't care for him at all? He wouldn't. Think how Albert Wesker treated Excella Gionne, where he clearly backstabbed her), and besides which, a lot of the things The Boss did in the story, despite how the story painted it, are the exact same things Volgin did, and in terms of the story, she's barely even a villain (and yes, that includes nuking Graniny Gorki and Groznyj Grad, not to mention backstabbing her own allies, actually trying to kill her own protégé quite a few times, and overall being a huge nihilist). And just because the story doesn't paint them as evil doesn't mean they aren't. Don't forget that Peace Walker painted Che Guevara in a positive manner, and he's actually about as bad as if not even worse than Volgin if you read up his history, and thus more than qualifies as a Complete Monster. Believe me, I don't like having to remove Volgin from CM any more than you do (and personally, I'm a bit irritated with The Boss being painted as a good guy and sympathetic despite doing the same things Volgin did), but there no other option. And saying "how the story treats it" doesn't cut it. Suppose the story treats an actual saint like a complete monster and pure evil even when he never does anything actually bad (a designated villain, in other words) and the hero is treated in a positive light even when he does a lot of horrific actions and clearly has no remorse and his/her motives are not even close to being sympathetic, are you honestly going to label the villain as a complete monster just because the villain was treated as such without actually demonstrating it? Besides, even the game makes a huge emphasis about how there's no such thing as good and evil, and that enemies are always relative, which really ruins the whole Complete Monster idea since that implies that there actually IS a standard of good and evil, which Snake Eater constantly tries to deny (The Boss's statements about how there's no such thing as an absolute enemy and everything's relative, and how right and wrong don't matter, are painted as virtues in the story), meaning including the CM category is pointless (and quite frankly, I hated that message of relativity. Were it up to me, I'd list both The Boss and Volgin as Complete Monsters precisely because their actions were no different, and Volgin's actually was treated as evil.). Weedle McHairybug (talk) 14:55, May 9, 2015 (UTC) Thing is that was more a obsession of his property then actually a person. This has been discussed allot by people on TVTropes and here on how this man saw him as a possession and obsessed with keeping it much as Bellatrix Lestrange's love was more of a obsession with Voldemort and not Redeeming in the least. Yes the writing of the series is jacked from what I hear but it's what we need to go by whether you like it or not. The series portrays The Boss as a secretly redeemed character as "really she was good all along and the Big Good". You are allowed to hate it but we go by what the series paints even when it's confusing and annoying.Jester of chaos (talk) 15:06, May 9, 2015 (UTC) :No, treating him as property would be more like laughing about Big Boss beating up Raikov or simply not even caring if Big Boss beat him up. Think along the lines of Wesker's treatment of Excella Gionne for what I mean by treating someone as property than an actual person, or even how Palpatine acted regarding Vader nearly being killed by Luke or Galen Marek. They clearly treated them as property (and by "property," I mean a disposable tool. When Excella got infected with Uroboros, by Wesker no less, he clearly didn't care at all that she was dying as a result, and casually acknowledged it rejected her and even all but stated she basically outlived her usefulness to him, and that was someone who was the closest he ever had to an actual loved one, and Palpatine, he practically GOADED Luke/Galen Marek to kill Vader, and Vader thanks to the novel Darth Plagueis and his role in influencing the midichlorians alongside Plagueis is the closest thing he has to an actual son.). :And should we consider Quaritch from Avatar a CM? TVTropes considered him that, and the story certainly treated him as pure evil at the very least, yet it also acknowledged that even he had some reasons to be sympathetic (being unintentionally sympathetic, in other words), actually having redeemable traits like actually caring for the men he has charge of. :And as I said on the Boss page, no, she was not "redeemed." That implies that she was bad, but then rejected the evil and returned to good. She never even left the good side in the first place (well, technically, anyways, though whether she actually WAS good or not is debatable). Weedle McHairybug (talk) 15:16, May 9, 2015 (UTC) It's considered redeemed if they were portrayed bad but never left the "good side". I haven't watched Avatar in a while but yes as he would happily sacrifice for his men in a heartbeat and only "cared" when it served his goal. To this guy nearly everyone except you see his relationship" as 'he is is mine not yours so don't you harm him!' Type of thing. CM's can have a tragic backstory but loose all sympathy due to their atrocities Koba being a prime example who before killing other apes was considered sympathetic.Jester of chaos (talk) 15:32, May 9, 2015 (UTC) :Regarding Quaritch, this is what the page "Unintentionally Sympathetic" says about him: "Colonel Miles Quaritch of Avatar. Many viewers found his actions and motivations understandable, to the point that he's regarded by some as the true hero of the movie. He plays A Father to His Men totally straight, making his dislike of the Na'vi somewhat justified due to their penchant for killing his Marines. He's forced to sit idly by while his men are picked off one-by-one by the Na'vi because his higher-ups insist on attempting diplomacy with an enemy that he clearly (and correctly) believes aren't interested in diplomacy. Then, around the midpoint of the movie, a Marine he had trusted betrayed him and started gathering an army to drive humans off the planet, and you can kind of understand Quaritch's motivations for stopping it." A lot of those things would come across as exempting him from the Complete Monster category (and BTW, A Father to His Men would most likely exempt anyone from being a Complete Monster since that's an actual redeemable trait, since it implies you do care for people other than yourself). Likewise, the Na'vi as well as Jake were listed under "Unintentionally Unsympathetic," for several reasons, namely their doing a lot of heinous things, and Jake screwing over the Na'vi when he had the chance to warn them by literally screwing with the chieftan's daughter. :And anyways, did Palpatine or Wesker react in any way like that when Excella and Vader were about to be harmed? No, they abandoned them, at worst even goading the main protagonist to hurt and kill them, and they do have a rather close relationship (Vader being Palpatine's right hand man and possibly the closest thing he has to an actual son thanks to the experiment he and Plagueis did that resulted in Vader's birth and even admitting that he'd create him again with zeal if he had the chance at one point; and Excella basically being the closest thing Wesker has to an actual wife/lover) and obviously only viewed them as pawns to be disposed of once their usefulness is outlived. That's the problem with it, really. Not to mention we don't even get any real indication that he even beats up or abuses Raikov at all (unlike with EVA/Tatyana, who certainly gets beaten up by him constantly), and Raikov's character model's lacking of any injuries whatsoever indicates he's probably one of the few, if not the only characters he DOESN'T beat up or abuse beyond repeatedly grabbing his scrotum (remember, this is the same game that showed realistic and very graphic wounds to Naked Snake during the beatdown he received from Volgin, not to mention showed EVA possessing some scars, most of which related to Volgin's... treatment of her, and another for unspecified reasons other than possibly it having to do with any activities she had before her mission to Tselinoyarsk for China. If they really wanted to imply he was just as much Volgin's punching bag as Tatyana was, they would have gone through the effort to show some electrical burn scars anywhere on Raikov's body save for the face.). Maybe if it was made clear that he abuses him just as much as he does Tatyana (and I mean more than just grabbing him by the scrotum, as disgusting as that is), you'd have a point (after all, Joker got angered with Deadshot for "touching his stuff" for sleeping with Harley Quinn in Assault on Arkham, and he obviously doesn't care all that much for Harley Quinn at all, being quite abusive of her and even willing to do stuff that would very likely kill her or worse, and Deadshot didn't even harm her at all, and if anything was a real gentleman to her by comparison.). Weedle McHairybug (talk) 15:55, May 9, 2015 (UTC) With Quaritch me and many others just saw him as a man willing to let his men and an alien race die just to retrieve a precious metal not a caring person or hero. Volgin seemed to have a perverse obsession or sense of entitlement than true love to which I would compare to Bellatrix with Vodemort.Jester of chaos (talk) 16:29, May 9, 2015 (UTC)